Game: What game are you currently playing??

[MFauli]

You don't feel a certain shallowness and lack of finality by not beating the game and seeing the credits roll? Then you can curse at all the idiots who made the game with their shitty coding and crappy game design, and hope they never make another game because they suck at it. It's why I play video games.

I do. But when I got as far as beating the final final final ... final boss to half of his health and then dying, and not seeing a chance at finishing without hours of repetitive grinding, I say "screw it" and im proud to be strongwilled enough to make that decision. It sucks, because I honestly liked the atmosphere, story,characters and battle system up to that point.

It´s a problem with lots of jrpgs, though. I´ve never finished a Final Fantasy-game because of that shit, even though I played every single one, starting with FF7. :/

That´s why I prefer jrpgs that focus on their plot and world building, without making the game itself frustrating. That´s why Xenoblade Chronicles and Skies of Arcadia are my favorite jrpgs of all times.

[shinta|hikari]

FF rpgs require little to no grinding. Over leveling is actually a more potent problem.

[Ryllharu]

I seem to recall having to do grinding in every FF I've played aside from FF1 and FF8.

- FF1, no grinding needed. Hell, you can autoplay it with four fighters.
- In proper FF4 (i.e. not FFII usa), you have no chance without grinding at least a few levels every plot point.
- FF6 is a mixed bag, you might, you might not. I did.
- FF7 has a few segments where grinding is critical (because you otherwise breezed through the content and are now stuck underleveled or miss often critical material), and 100% the game (which really isn't all that hard) requires grinding.
- FF8, as mentioned above, is where you'll routinely over-level the content, though still want to grind for certain skills and items (though grinding is required for the card game at certain points in order to get a competitive deck).
- FF9, grinding isn't just required, it is mandatory in order to retain skills from weapons (you'll easily out level the content without grinding, but what's the point if you can't keep certain skills/summons?).
- FFX requires grinding (of some kind or another) for all top-tier weapons, and several other skills, equipment, useful summons, and a tactically-functional party.
- FFX-2 requires grinding for dresspheres and the not-shit ending.

[MFauli]

FF rpgs require little to no grinding. Over leveling is actually a more potent problem.

Let´s see:

- stopped playing FF7 at the end of disc 1, because the graphics were so pixalated and shit that I could not find the further way
- stopped playing FF8 on disc 3, fight against Edea inside that opponent garden. Had no chance, she kept casting "death", I said "fuck you". Only found out years later that it´s actually making the game harder, if you level up your characters,
- didnt play FF9
- stopped playing FF10 in the very final area before the final boss. Random enemies would one hit-ko me with "meteor"-spells. I said "fuck you", not intending to spend hours of grinding.
- stopped playing FF12 somewhere on disc 2 against some plant-tree-monster that would fuck my group with status-spells. Would have needed hours of grinding => fuck you
- stopped playing FF13 after like 15 hours ... because it sucked.

My love for Squall Leonhart keeps me coming back to this series, but damn, the games are so badly designed that only fanboys would ever praise them. Meanwhile, MonolithSoft manages to create fantastic jrpgs with engaging gameplay, namely Baten Kaitos, Baten Kaitos Origins and Xenoblade. Square Enix should make another Crystal Chronicles, would be better than their pretentious, "mature" Final Fantasy-crap. I mean, lol, FF15 already sucks, simply because the hero looks like Sasuke.

[Ryllharu]

- stopped playing FF12 somewhere on disc 2 against some plant-tree-monster that would fuck my group with status-spells. Would have needed hours of grinding => fuck you

Malboros have been a FF staple forever. They're not that hard as long as you are well-stocked in the items or curative spells. They're just like Tonberries, easy to counter if you know what they do.

[KrayZ33]

FF8 had a system that allowed you to 1 shot (or maybe a few more hits than just 1) everything till the end of the game, fun game! no really, I enjoyed that

Cifer: " I'm a Witch-Knight, you'll never defeat me"

Squall - Attack!

Cifer: "ugh ahrrr....how is this possible"

it was a valid tactic to start each fight with less than 20% HP so you can start with limit breaks

[shinta|hikari]

You just have to play smartly to avoid grinding. There is always a mechanic that can be used to win battles easily, like abusing limit breaks or junctioning death to your gunblade attack. If you want to kill optional bosses or clear areas, you will have to grind. But if you just want to finish the game, just doing the side quests should get you to a level appropriate to defeat your enemies. You will have to fight repeatedly at times to get some spells or weapons, but it isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

I played only FF7, 8, 10, and 12 though, so I cannot really speak for the older ones. FFX in particular was way too easy to over level. I one shotted the final boss after killing a bit in the optional dungeon.

[Animeniax]

I do. But when I got as far as beating the final final final ... final boss to half of his health and then dying, and not seeing a chance at finishing without hours of repetitive grinding, I say "screw it" and im proud to be strongwilled enough to make that decision. It sucks, because I honestly liked the atmosphere, story,characters and battle system up to that point.

I've reached such points in some games, and while I can't say they're as hard as what you're describing, I've found if you take a break and try it again you will beat the final boss. Usually after a few tries I'm very frustrated and angry and not thinking straight, so I continue to lose to the boss. But once I walk away, usually until the next day, I find the tactic or thing you have to do in order to win.

[shinta|hikari]

That was the approach I took for Dark Souls 2. I only played around 1-2 hours at a time. It kept frustration levels low, and when I tackle a challenge with a fresh mindset, I find it much easier to overcome, making me almost wonder why I had trouble with it in the first place.

[Animeniax]

And same here, it's always a *bonk self on head* moment for me when I beat a boss easily where I struggled with him repeatedly before. I can usually identify what I was doing wrong, but I'm still amazed by it.

[MFauli]

I think it differs between the various genres. I agree with your approach when it comes to active, action-y games, where the outcome of a fight depends on your own skills as a player. With classic turn-based combat systems, though, it becomes a matter of stats, and that means: Grind, grind, grind. Not saying that thoughtful players could beat a boss without brainless grinding, but at this point in my life, Im not such a jrpg-nut to put that much thought into a single jrpg. Maybe I would if I was all over that game, but when it´s "just" a good game, that´s where I quit it.

Games like Zelda, Monster Hunter or Metroid are better for that reason, because when you fail, it´s really because YOU failed, not because you lacked certain stats.

[Ryllharu]

I think it differs between the various genres. I agree with your approach when it comes to active, action-y games, where the outcome of a fight depends on your own skills as a player. With classic turn-based combat systems, though, it becomes a matter of stats, and that means: Grind, grind, grind. Not saying that thoughtful players could beat a boss without brainless grinding, but at this point in my life, Im not such a jrpg-nut to put that much thought into a single jrpg. Maybe I would if I was all over that game, but when it´s "just" a good game, that´s where I quit it.

Games like Zelda, Monster Hunter or Metroid are better for that reason, because when you fail, it´s really because YOU failed, not because you lacked certain stats.

But that is why you giving up on FFX seems to strange to me. Of all the FFs (aside from the aberration that is FF Tactics that mandates both player skill and grinding anyway), FFX has had one of the best battle systems by far. I would even suggest it has the best battle system of all the FF games.

No fights in FFX were hard if you used strategy and your entire team (except Kimahri, he was useless). Even the simplest of enemies in the first island required you to switch out, and encounters were always mixed so that you actually couldn't rely on the same three (until very late when everyone has elemental weapons and other linked effects) throughout any given battle.

- Tidus/Wakka were the only one fast enough to hit swift enemies.
- Wakka was the only one who could hit fliers (Lulu to a degree but a waste of magic, and Tidus later).
- Auron the only one with piercing for armored foes (Tidus later).
- Lulu was the only one who could kill enemies strong against physical attacks.
- Rikku the only one capable of stealing and obliterating mechanical foes in one-shot (previously reliant on Auron).
- Yuna the only healer (though they did force you to play summoner showdowns).
- Kimarhi was decent at everything, but also good at nothing.

Also being strictly turn-based (no ATB) you could employ strategy and plan your attacks and defenses long in advance.

There's really only one or two really difficult fights.

[shinta|hikari]

And you could cheat by charging up the limit break meter of every character before entering a boss fight.

[Xelbair]

FF8 had a system that allowed you to 1 shot (or maybe a few more hits than just 1) everything till the end of the game, fun game! no really, I enjoyed that

Cifer: " I'm a Witch-Knight, you'll never defeat me"

Squall - Attack!

Cifer: "ugh ahrrr....how is this possible"

it was a valid tactic to start each fight with less than 20% HP so you can start with limit breaks

in FF8 you could force limit break all the time - just spam change character button - it rerolls chance for limit break each time. Odin was great way to kill marloboros - just hope for Zantestu, or what was the instakill called, and run if it didn't happen.
Marloboros were a threat even when you were level 99, full top-tier junctions on everything.

But that is why you giving up on FFX seems to strange to me. Of all the FFs (aside from the aberration that is FF Tactics that mandates both player skill and grinding anyway), FFX has had one of the best battle systems by far. I would even suggest it has the best battle system of all the FF games.

No fights in FFX were hard if you used strategy and your entire team (except Kimahri, he was useless). Even the simplest of enemies in the first island required you to switch out, and encounters were always mixed so that you actually couldn't rely on the same three (until very late when everyone has elemental weapons and other linked effects) throughout any given battle.

- Tidus/Wakka were the only one fast enough to hit swift enemies.
- Wakka was the only one who could hit fliers (Lulu to a degree but a waste of magic, and Tidus later).
- Auron the only one with piercing for armored foes (Tidus later).
- Lulu was the only one who could kill enemies strong against physical attacks.
- Rikku the only one capable of stealing and obliterating mechanical foes in one-shot (previously reliant on Auron).
- Yuna the only healer (though they did force you to play summoner showdowns).
- Kimarhi was decent at everything, but also good at nothing.

Also being strictly turn-based (no ATB) you could employ strategy and plan your attacks and defenses long in advance.

There's really only one or two really difficult fights.

FF XIII did not require grinding too - heck - it was impossible to grind till very late part of the game. Combat was dynamic and fun - it was more about timing and less about strategy though.
Use paradigm with sentinel to block heavy hits, change between charging enemies and breaking/prolonging the charge time(commando vs ravagers), change to heals/debuffs/buffs when needed.
It got bad reputation for being linear... but seriously - which FF game wasn't linear?

[MFauli]

But that is why you giving up on FFX seems to strange to me. Of all the FFs (aside from the aberration that is FF Tactics that mandates both player skill and grinding anyway), FFX has had one of the best battle systems by far. I would even suggest it has the best battle system of all the FF games.

No fights in FFX were hard if you used strategy and your entire team (except Kimahri, he was useless). Even the simplest of enemies in the first island required you to switch out, and encounters were always mixed so that you actually couldn't rely on the same three (until very late when everyone has elemental weapons and other linked effects) throughout any given battle.

- Tidus/Wakka were the only one fast enough to hit swift enemies.
- Wakka was the only one who could hit fliers (Lulu to a degree but a waste of magic, and Tidus later).
- Auron the only one with piercing for armored foes (Tidus later).
- Lulu was the only one who could kill enemies strong against physical attacks.
- Rikku the only one capable of stealing and obliterating mechanical foes in one-shot (previously reliant on Auron).
- Yuna the only healer (though they did force you to play summoner showdowns).
- Kimarhi was decent at everything, but also good at nothing.

Also being strictly turn-based (no ATB) you could employ strategy and plan your attacks and defenses long in advance.

There's really only one or two really difficult fights.

You already sound like someone who invested a lot of time, effort and thought into that game. I didn´t. I wanted to experience the story and proceed. Also, I can´t really talk about it since it´s forever since I played it. I just remember that every Seymour-fight was frustratingly difficult, that most boss fights were dependent on sheer luck (proven by when I kept using the same strategy against Seymour on that snowy mountain, and after some attempts it worked without me changing a single factor) and that I didn´t stand a chance against random enemies in the final area.

I´m not saying that there are options to make all that easier, but the game certainly didnt help me with finding out about those strategies. Saying "no fight was hard, if ..." is redundant. If you know the perfect strategy, then nothing is difficult, it´s common sense. "If you learn for your test, you won´t fail it". Well, duh.

[Ryllharu]

I agree with you on the Seymour mountain fight, that one is 100% luck and bullshit, one of the two really difficult fights.

But the game really was designed in mind for you to use every member of your party, using their specialties to exploit the weaknesses of your enemies, and except for Seymour, they all have at least one. As stated, you're trained from the very first island to swap party members and use them appropriately. You can also watch the turn gauge and swap out party members so the newcomer takes the blow instead of your victory-critical member.

It's not a matter of, "if you know how to win it is easy." It's more of, "you are given all the tools to win effectively, take advantage."

Even the Yunalesca fight isn't that hard once you recognize that she's the [queen of the undead] and acts accordingly.

[shinta|hikari]

I think Mfauli is simply not invested enough to actually play these jrpgs. The strategies we have suggested do in fact require a bit of thought and strategy, while if you just want to advance, those would only serve as hindrances. While I do not completely agree with such a development in gaming culture, I would not go so far as to say I do not understand it to a certain extent.

Games are no longer time sink challenges, but instantly enjoyable entertainment. I am honestly conflicted as to what I would prefer, being a VN denizen myself.

[MFauli]

My problem with these classic jrpgs is that they´re wasting my time when I´m supposed to grind (which I am, when I did not invest myself enough to learn about deeper gameplay mechanics). At that point it becomes a chore, it becomes work. That´s because they´re entirely stat bases.

This is why I´m more of a fan of direct, active gameplay, where I am in control over what happens. In Zelda, I can attack, dodge, evade, observe. In FF, I have various stats that decide all that for me, in or against my favor. And it is not until I reach a certain level that I can proceed the game. Sure, even I knew about Yunalesca being undead and using holy stuff to defeat her, but other enemies require much more thoughtful preparation. That is for fanboys. I´m not a FF-fanboy, I only wanted to see the story unfold.

I´ve never been a fan of turn-based combat, since I play video games for their player-game interaction. Turn-based takes that away, makes it passive. Still, I´m an open-minded player, so I always wanted to give this popular franchise its fair chance.

Anyway, this wasn´t supposed to be about FF, though I guess you guys aren´t that familiar with the more hardcore jrpgs like SMT. I stopped playing, not because I did not see a chance at all to beat the final boss, but because I realized that it´d take me a couple more hours just to prepare for that. For a single fight. Not worth it.

[Ryllharu]

That's a fair viewpoint, but I'll even switch subgenres. I played Baldur's Gate (1 through ToB, also Icewind Dale 1 & 2). It's both real time and turn based.

The player-game interaction *is* the strategic execution of each fight. I had to abuse the system to win the final battle in the first game, but I did it. I threw a player up as a sacrifice to weaken my enemies (negating their initial attack) and get them into position for a 4 fireball alpha-strike. The lost player didn't die permanently, so I just gathered her equipment (and presumably revived her at a temple, game ends after that fight regardless).

Stats and equipment mattered a lot in that game, but it was still the player that determines the outcome. Just like many JRPGs.

[Animeniax]

Has anyone played DayZ Standalone? It's a zombie apocalypse MMO where you play a human trying to survive by finding food, water, shelter, and equipment, and avoiding or killing zombies and other players. I think it's still in alpha but available via Steam.