Ichigo's hollow powers

[XanBcoo]

Ok, here's what I thought was the most probable explanation for Ichigo's Hollow powers. This is not so much "evidence" for the fact that he got the powers from the pit, but proof that they probably didn't come from Rukia and the Hogyouku.

Hollows are born when one's chain of fate is eaten away (Causing the hole to appear in the chest). We saw this happen with Ichigo in episode 20-something. The chain reaches his body and he is covered by the mask substance. As far as we've been told, this is how Hollows are created and come into existence. If I remember correctly, Urahara and his crew are saying things like "is he becoming a hollow?" Here is another point I brought up earlier:

Ichigo got his powers from the pit, because as Zangetsu himself said, Ichigo has his own shinigami powers that Byakuya didn't sense (making Ichigo special regardless of Rukia, possibly due to his being Kaien's reincarnation-or whatever). Byakuya only assumed he had the power Rukia gave him, and took that away. Ichigo was then told to find his own powers among all those boxes. He did so as he was transforming into a hollow, thus his current condition.

Note: Shinigami powers are inherent, yet hollow powers are created by reasons stated above. As far as can be told, the Hougyoku separates the boundary between shinigami and hollow. It does NOT create pure hollows. Rather, turns shinigami and Hollows alike into hybrids. So it seems completely illogical to me to say that Ichigo's hollow is a result of this fusion device sealed within someone else.

I think FrogKing had a good point too:

we do know how a hollow is made and curiously [urahara's] test involves the use/discovery of shinigami powers to overcome the transformation. It isn't hard to imagine that his first successful creation involve the (I can't remember what it is called) chain being eatin' then having a strong enough soul to overcome it. Maybe the hougyoku was a 'test-tube' creation and Ichigo was the first 'in vivo' creation (i.e. he was putting the hollow/shinigami creation to a practical situation). Many scientists attempt the same type of experiments: test a model at the bench, then apply the model to a controlled in vivo situation.

Now, saying that Rukia gave Ichigo the powers in the initial transfer, you would have to assume that he's had the hollow-powers ever since episode one. Yet nowhere before the pit incident did we see any emergence of any Hollow type activity or powers in Ichigo. It was only after that point that the Hollow became an issue. This is not proof, it just strongly supports theory #1. Even in life-or-death situations, such as his encounter with Byakuya/Renji, he has not used the Hollow powers. One could say he used it to escape the pit (a true life-or-death situation), but remember he was only in that situation BECAUSE he was being turned into a hollow. He escaped by his own means. Quoting myself again:

We know how Ichigo came out of the pit, and it wasn't because of a Hollow, it was because he tapped into his own shinigami powers and was able to escape (though being halfway turned in to a hollow at that point).

Again, nowhere before the pit incident did Ichigo ever show any signs of having a hollow inside of him, or display any Shinigami/Hollow hybrid powers. Going off of Aizen's current (episode 61) explaination, it seems that one is able to surpass a Shinigami's limitations only by becoming a hybrid of Shinigami and Hollow. This would mean that both personalities are being used (such as in Ichigo's fight against Zaraki, and then more pronounced against Byakuya), when the "limit is broken".

[el_boss]

@Xan: All of that are really good points, but I don't really see it as proof. It's more like what we have seen so far. Most of that is also how it is normally (except what frogking said), and there is nothing normal about Ichigo's situation. I like to think that it's more to this than just what we have seen so far.

Originally posted by: Budweineken
Fighting Byakuya and Renji was not threatening enough?

Yeah, but Byakuya ruined Ichigos shit in that fight, so he had no shinigami/hollow powers that could save him. And also Rukia stopped Byakuya from throwing the killing blow.

Originally posted by: Assassin
well, the father thing has no merit since his father is the one person who has no rietsu at all. so unless its some cruel joke by mother nature, where all his fathers' possible rietsu was drained and transfered to him instead, then its really not a very likely theory.
Even with his mother, i dont think she had any rietsu herself. so theres no reason why she would have anything to do with his powers

As someone said, if every reincarnated shinigami had powers then there would be a shit load of people with spirit powers. Maybe you can have the powers but they don't manifest themselves.

*new theory* Well it's more like a addon/merge to theory 3 and 5. If you think about it, we don't really know when Kaien actually dies. I mean it could have been like a hundred years ago. So what I'm thinking is that maybe Ichigo isn't the reincarnation of Kaien but his mother or father or even further down the line.

[Munsu]

Originally posted by: el_boss
Yeah, but Byakuya ruined Ichigos shit in that fight, so he had no shinigami/hollow powers that could save him. And also Rukia stopped Byakuya from throwing the killing blow.

And this matters why? All Byakuya did was destroy Rukia's powers inside Ichigo, so that means whatever happens from then on have nothing to do with with the powers Rukia gave Ichigo... So you can conclude that Ichigo's Hybrid form had nothing to do with Rukia either...

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Budweineken

Originally posted by: el_boss
Yeah, but Byakuya ruined Ichigos shit in that fight, so he had no shinigami/hollow powers that could save him. And also Rukia stopped Byakuya from throwing the killing blow.

And this matters why? All Byakuya did was destroy Rukia's powers inside Ichigo, so that means whatever happens from then on have nothing to do with with the powers Rukia gave Ichigo...

Exactly because Buykuya destroyed Ichigos powers, so the hollow couldn't come out.

So you can conclude that Ichigo's Hybrid form had nothing to do with Rukia either...

Now you are just contradicting yourself. This is exactly why we can assume that Rukia's powers within Ichigo also could have had a hollow nature.

And maybe if Buykuya was about to kill Ichigo for reals, his hollow would have been triggered. He just might have needed a real life or death situation to activate his powers.

[Munsu]

You are missing the point completely...


Inside Ichigo there have always been two powers... one that he has had since he was born, and another one that he got from Rukia... Throughout the whole first half of the series he was using Rukia's which ended up being destroyed by Byakuya... Hence everything that happens after that has nothing to do with Rukia...

The reason he used the pit was to awaken his other power, the one he was born with... So you can conclude that either his hybrid form was caused by the pit or that his hybrid form was hybrid since his birth...

So, I'm not contradicting myself, and I can't explain myself any better...

And I'll say it now, you saying that "maybe if Byakuya was about to kill Ichigo for reals" is the biggest BS you've come up with in a while...

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Budweineken
You are missing the point completely...

Inside Ichigo there have always been two powers... one that he has had since he was born, and another one that he got from Rukia... Throughout the whole first half of the series he was using Rukia's which ended up being destroyed by Byakuya... Hence everything that happens after that has nothing to do with Rukia...

The reason he used the pit was to awaken his other power, the one he was born with... So you can conclude that either his hybrid form was caused by the pit or that his hybrid form was hybrid since his birth...

So, I'm not contradicting myself, and I can't explain myself any better...

And I'll say it now, you saying that "maybe if Byakuya was about to kill Ichigo for reals" is the biggest BS you've come up with in a while...

I'm not missing the point at all, I totally get what your saying. You are the one that's misunderstanding me, I'm just saying that it's possible not probable that there's more to it.

What part do you mean is BS? Byakuya was in fact not about to kill Ichigo, if he was then Ichigo would have obviously been dead now or turned in to a hollow right there. As I said, Ichigo just might have need a real life or death situation. As you might remember Ichigo survived (because Rukia stopped Byakuya) and went to train with Urahara.

*New theory* The hollow Ichigo appeared in the pit to stop Ichigo from becoming a full hollow. If the chain would have been eaten the hollow Ichigo might have never had a chance to take over his body.

[Munsu]

That last theory looks interesting, I would have to rewatch the episode...

How can fighting Byakuya not be a real life or death situation, he was fucked up... and he didn't survived because Byakuaya spared him, he mainly survived cause Urahara treated him... It's not like the hollow inside Ichigo was saying, "Wait, Byakuya is toying with me, he wont kill Ichigo..." There's no way he could've known that... This is of course hypothetically saying that he indeed was inside of Ichigo at that moment, which I don't agree with...


And you are indeed misunderstanding me...

You said that Byakuya cutting Ichigo's power prevented the hollow from coming out... Guess what, that's wrong because what was cut was Rukia's powers inside him, and with all the evidence I have presented in my posts you can see that it's of no importance since Rukia's powers inside of him had nothing to do with Ichigo's hollow form...

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Budweineken
How can fighting Byakuya not be a real life or death situation, he was fucked up... and he didn't survived because Byakuaya spared him, he mainly survived cause Urahara treated him... It's not like the hollow inside Ichigo was saying, "Wait, Byakuya is toying with me, he wont kill Ichigo..." There's no way he could've known that... This is of course hypothetically saying that he indeed was inside of Ichigo at that moment, which I don't agree with...

And you are indeed misunderstanding me...

You said that Byakuya cutting Ichigo's power prevented the hollow from coming out... Guess what, that's wrong because what was cut was Rukia's powers inside him, and with all the evidence I have presented in my posts you can see that it's of no importance since Rukia's powers inside of him had nothing to do with Ichigo's hollow form...

Ok, I see now where I misunderstood you, sorry mate. I mixed up some of the facts when I said "Yeah, but Byakuya ruined Ichigos shit in that fight, so he had no shinigami/hollow powers that could save him". I see now that some of my statements must have looked rather wierd. Forget that I said that and look at my new theory instead. But hypothetically Rukia could have also have had hollow powers they just didn't get to manifest themselves. Because she gave away her powers in episode 1 and Ichigo lost her powers against Byakuya. (You don't need to tell me that this is far-fetched, I am already aware of that).

*new theory* In other fights where the hollow has aided Ichigo there has always been a defining moment where he would have died if nothing was done. Also maybe Ichigo himself has to have a very strong desire for something to save him and basically admit that he has lost.

Maybe the hollow Ichigo was in fact observing the first fight against Byakuya, but he decided not to help because he wanted Ichigo to lose his Rukia powers and get weakened. This however requires that the hollow must have calculated that Byakuya was going for Ichigo's link, but I think it's safe to assume that he could make such an analysis since he is extremely gifted. Rukia's powers might have been the thing that was surpressing the hollow from fully taking over Ichigo's body. So the hollow was waiting for Byakuya's final blow so that he could take over Ichigo's body. But as we know Rukia interrupted this.

[Carnage]

I just watched ep. 61 last night. Youll find the answers there.

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: God#2
I just watched ep. 61 last night. Youll find the answers there.

Answer for what? Please do elaborate.

[Carnage]

nevermind. I just rewatched the episode, it doesnt really completely explain how ichigo got his powers.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img] I was just thinking though, since Aizens so strong and it seems like nobody but Yamaji has a chance of even touching him, well, Aizen said the wall of power between the shinigami and Hollows will be broken down. So maybe Ichigo will transcend Zangestu to a level higher than Bankai.

[Assassin]

i swear, more then half of you must be on crack. Where do you keep getting these new theories from?

OMG NEWTHEORY!!!1: hollow ichigo is the next evolution of the human race!

Corallory to new theory: hollow ichigo will team up with magneto who is infact aizens brother and they will kill all humans!111

Why do you all refuse to accept the most obvious of evidence. This is an anime, so almost anything is possible....but you have to think logically. Just because its possible, doesn't mean its true. If the odds of something happening are like 1:124989^878778 then you can pretty much accept that its not gona be the case. Focus on the more realistic theories instead of stuff like, "hollow ichigo appears to stop the hollow transformation."

[Kraco]

Well, on the other hand it would make a pretty boring thread if the first post contained a theory and all subsequent posts just: "Seconded", "Aye, that must be it", "That's it", etc...

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Assassin
i swear, more then half of you must be on crack. Where do you keep getting these new theories from?

OMG NEWTHEORY!!!1: hollow ichigo is the next evolution of the human race!

Corallory to new theory: hollow ichigo will team up with magneto who is infact aizens brother and they will kill all humans!111

Why do you all refuse to accept the most obvious of evidence. This is an anime, so almost anything is possible....but you have to think logically. Just because its possible, doesn't mean its true. If the odds of something happening are like 1:124989^878778 then you can pretty much accept that its not gona be the case. Focus on the more realistic theories instead of stuff like, "hollow ichigo appears to stop the hollow transformation."

Which theories are more realistic? If you are going to whine you could at least keep it on topic. For example you can say what theories you don't like and explain why you don't like them, just saying that it's "unrealistic" isn't really a good argument when talking about this sort subject. Or you could say what theory you agree with the most and motivate. My theories might not be to your liking but I take the effort to present my motivation for them.

Your theory isn't really a new one. I would say that it's more like a extension to theory 4. And also it's more logical to say that hollow Ichigo is the next evolution of the shinigamis.

[Assassin]

refer to my earlier posts in the ep 61 thread for my theories and my evidence against some other theories. Im not gonna rewrite all of that here again.

as for realistic theories, here are the ones i mean:

#1, the pit theory. #2, rukia transferrence theory (although it has been disproven). #6, urahara did it on purpose. #3, reincarnation (only cuz we dont know what happens to souls when they die).

everything is imo is pretty idiotic. not because its a pretty long stretch, but because theres alot of evidence against it (stuff like hogokyou affecting rukia/ichigo)

[Kovash]

A few things I noticed that I might mention.

1. Urahara said, quite clearly, that helping Ichigo regain his spiritual powers was about putting him at risk so that he forceibly dragged them to the surface to protect himself.

The Pit was intended as the ultimate risk factor, either do nothing and allow himsefl to become a hollow, lost forever; or become a Shinigami again to prevent the transformation. As Aizen has menioned, Shinigami and Hollows are like oppisites and there is a very definite and real boundary between the two, hence why making hybrids is seemingly impossible. So, Urahara knew that if Ichigo could regain his Shinigami powers, he could not be a hollow.

Urahara was then surprised that when Ichigo underwent the transformation into a Hollow, instead of his spiritual body disintergrating like normal, it retained its form as a sign of defiance against the change. We saw from the dialouge with Zangetsu that his inner soul was crumbling so he was in thep rocess, he just had to stop it by finding his Shinigami powers and making them resurface. (I'm not sure if it was a translation thing; but in the Luna sub Zangetsu mentions that Ichigo's power sensed their imminate destruction at the hands of Byakuya and hid deep inside him, surviving while Rukia's power was cleanly cut out. Which explains why he was carrying Zangetsu and not Rukia's Soul Slayer -unless he is... but there is no evidence of that since we havn't seen her's yet and she hasn't seen Zangetsu either to comment-)

What I think is posible and most likely, is that Ichigo became the Hybrid in the pit. We know that the mask that formed over him is the same Hollow that takes over his Bankai later, since it's the same mask. So the question we are left with is, is Ichigo's Hollow insides a seperate being? or the shadow of his own soul demented by his own emotions (which is what a hollow is.)

I personally think that Ichigo has had a very big Identitiy crisis (his mother dying had a massive impact on him) and that might have created to alternate versions of his own personality. The shame and dred inside him which is normally the source of a Hollow transformation, and his heroic side.

Since he HAS these two sides, and he became a Shingami shortly after turning hollow, maybe his bad side turned hollow and his hero side turned Shinigami so he's a hybrid now... *pant*

[el_boss]

@Assassin: Most of the other theories are explanations of the ones you think are most "realistic". I haven't really seen any evidence against any of the theories. What is the evidence against theory #7?

Originally posted by: Kovash
What I think is posible and most likely, is that Ichigo became the Hybrid in the pit. We know that the mask that formed over him is the same Hollow that takes over his Bankai later, since it's the same mask. So the question we are left with is, is Ichigo's Hollow insides a seperate being? or the shadow of his own soul demented by his own emotions (which is what a hollow is.)

I personally think that Ichigo has had a very big Identitiy crisis (his mother dying had a massive impact on him) and that might have created to alternate versions of his own personality. The shame and dred inside him which is normally the source of a Hollow transformation, and his heroic side.

Since he HAS these two sides, and he became a Shingami shortly after turning hollow, maybe his bad side turned hollow and his hero side turned Shinigami so he's a hybrid now... *pant*

Since the hollow up till now has only taken over when Ichigo has been in shinigami form, we can assume that it isn't connected to his human body but that it recides in his soul. I don't think it's that far off to say as you mentioned, that the hollow is the "shadow of his own soul". I like the idea that Ichigo became "hollow" inside after his mothers death, because of the traumatic nature and that he blames himself. You might even be able to say that the hollow Ichigo is almost the real Ichigo and that his heroic side is a front he puts up so he won't need to deal with his real emotions.

Maybe it's not a far stretch to say that if in fact Ichigo did have split personalities, maybe the bad/sad side sacrificed itself to save the rest. Or maybe it chose to become a hollow so that it would have a chance to resurface.

[Jadugar]

Originally posted by: Assassin
everything is imo is pretty idiotic. not because its a pretty long stretch, but because theres alot of evidence against it (stuff like hogokyou affecting rukia/ichigo)

Hogokkyou has a barrier around it.

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Jadugar
Hogokkyou has a barrier around it.

I am aware of that. But is it not possible that the barrier might have gotten corrupted when Rukia transferred her powers. Since we don't know how it actually works we can't say for certain what the situation is. It could work directly trough "radiation" or it might be part of a bigger ritual.

I've been thinking about something. The hollow Ichigo seems to be very good at fighting and has alot of general knowledge about being a shinigami it seems. I think this fact could be used as a argument for theories which involve reincarnation. Or maybe it just means that the Hollow part is like Zangetsu and travels between hosts.

[Jurojin]

Originally posted by: el_boss

Originally posted by: Jadugar
Hogokkyou has a barrier around it.

I am aware of that. But is it not possible that the barrier might have gotten corrupted when Rukia transferred her powers. Since we don't know how it actually works we can't say for certain what the situation is. It could work directly trough "radiation" or it might be part of a bigger ritual.

I've been thinking about something. The hollow Ichigo seems to be very good at fighting and has alot of general knowledge about being a shinigami it seems. I think this fact could be used as a argument for theories which involve reincarnation. Or maybe it just means that the Hollow part is like Zangetsu and travels between hosts.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait a minute. I need to bring something up.

Rukia didn't get the Hogokkyou(spl) until *after* she transferred her powers to Ichigo (got sucked out of her, more like it [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]). From what I understand from the latest episode, here's the timeline:

Hogokkyou is made, attempts to destroy it are made, but to no avail.
Urahara is kicked out/ leaves willingly from SS, trying to keep it away from Aizen.
skip a few days/months/years however long it was since then
Rukia is wounded by Hollow
Rukia transfers powers to Ichigo
Ichigo wins, runs off to check on family
Urahara comes up to a beat up Rukia, and asks if she needs/wants a faux body.
Rukia goes into said faux body, but unbeknownst to her, the Hogokkyou is hiding inside of it, and as long as she's in the faux body, it slowly starts making her into a human spirit.



That's what *I* understood to be what Aizen was talking about last episode. I'll check again when I get home, but I'm like 95% certain that's the events that happened.