Attack on Titan: Shingeki no Kyojin

[MFauli]

You mean the thing 90% of the series used to be about?

We must have watched different shows then, because my Attack on Titan was about underdogs fighting against all odds. Not dominating the battlefield.

And it's sooooo fucking satisfying. Floch's group are the the worst fucking Nazi-wannabes. It's just too bad Floch himself isn't dead yet.

What is wrong with you :/ The nazi-wannabes are the one's trying to eradicade their own people "for the greater good".

[DarthEnderX]

We must have watched different shows then, because my Attack on Titan was about underdogs fighting against all odds. Not dominating the battlefield.

Right. The entire first half of the series was about a bunch of randos going up against titans and getting their ass kicked. The thing you just complained about.

I mean, Annie is literally doing all the same shit she was doing in the arc that focused on her.

The nazi-wannabes are the one's trying to eradicade their own people "for the greater good".

No. The Nazi-wannabes are the ones trying to wipe out all other races for the ambitions of a global empire.


Edited. Tone it down.
-Buff.

[neflight86]

Sorry, but am I supposed to empathize with the "heroes" when they're THAT overwhelmingly in advantage?! Blabla mission goals blabla, but Floch's group never a chance once battle broke out. All the heroes + titans versus group of randos. Exciting /s

This isn't about empathizing with 'heroes' and 'villains'. It's not about catharsis. This (entire second half of this season) is about the conclusion to a set of events and decisions (made by all sides) that have apocalyptic repercussions. The tension in this fight/operation was outlined from the start- protect the engineers and the airship or this is a failure. No doubt the Jagerists are outmatched, but they have an advantageous win condition.

And fuck Armin and Conny. A situation like this is where you give up on your grand plan because you realize it's right to kill friends over it.

I think you're saying that they should never have tried to do this bloodlessly due to the stakes. Two counter points: first, the deception afforded them the opportunity to get into range to disable the bomb. Second, this builds on the previously demonstrated themes of the show. In season three, Armin wanted to talk to Bertholt before it came to (more) violence, and just last episode at the camp fire, everyone was reminded that Marco died begging for a chance to 'talk it out'. Armin (and Connie) are kind enough to put their lives on the line to try and spare their former comrades, but it doesn't work out.

Matter of fact, they only succeed because Thomas and Daz didn't want to kill them in the first place. The weight of their duty compelled Connie to finally pull the trigger when Daz (and arguably Thomas) didn't because of friendship. They did realize it was 'right to kill their friends over it', but that decision wasn't made in a sociopathic vacuum. That's why the human drama in AoT is so compelling. It never loses sight of both the good and bad parts of how people are and how they are affected by the cruelty of this world.

Never have I thought someone was as screwed as when Annie and Reiner both transformed behind Floch, but somehow he's still kicking. Revolutionary as he is, as far as I can tell he's just a normal person with monomania and his trauma from the suicide charge.

[MFauli]

This isn't about empathizing with 'heroes' and 'villains'. It's not about catharsis. This (entire second half of this season) is about the conclusion to a set of events and decisions (made by all sides) that have apocalyptic repercussions. The tension in this fight/operation was outlined from the start- protect the engineers and the airship or this is a failure. No doubt the Jagerists are outmatched, but they have an advantageous win condition.



I think you're saying that they should never have tried to do this bloodlessly due to the stakes. Two counter points: first, the deception afforded them the opportunity to get into range to disable the bomb. Second, this builds on the previously demonstrated themes of the show. In season three, Armin wanted to talk to Bertholt before it came to (more) violence, and just last episode at the camp fire, everyone was reminded that Marco died begging for a chance to 'talk it out'. Armin (and Connie) are kind enough to put their lives on the line to try and spare their former comrades, but it doesn't work out.

Matter of fact, they only succeed because Thomas and Daz didn't want to kill them in the first place. The weight of their duty compelled Connie to finally pull the trigger when Daz (and arguably Thomas) didn't because of friendship. They did realize it was 'right to kill their friends over it', but that decision wasn't made in a sociopathic vacuum. That's why the human drama in AoT is so compelling. It never loses sight of both the good and bad parts of how people are and how they are affected by the cruelty of this world.

Never have I thought someone was as screwed as when Annie and Reiner both transformed behind Floch, but somehow he's still kicking. Revolutionary as he is, as far as I can tell he's just a normal person with monomania and his trauma from the suicide charge.

Hence why the whole setup of that episode makes me sympathize with Floch the most :/

I see your point about Armin and Connie giving talking a chance mirroring Marco. If that was intentional, it's a nice idea indeed.

[MFauli]

Episode 86:

Floch is a hero.

Fighting against the armored titan, the female titan, the jaw titan, Mikasa, Jean, Conny, Armin, the Pieck titan, and the Marleyan guys, and ALMOST winning. That sequence where he rushed towards the ship to land the deciding blow with a missile against the ship was breathtaking and I was rooting so hard for him. He really is the Yagami Light of this decade. But praise must go to all his team mates, too. None of them were named, important characters, and here they are bravely fighting several of the scariest disasters that ever appeared in Eldia. I was almost crying when the train exploded - so many courageous people murdered in the blink of an eye, just so that some murderous traitors can set their plan in motion. There's a slim hope that Floch is still alive as he just fell into the water while still conscious. Hopefully he can heal and take revenge.

However, wtf, how can this story end with only one episode left?! THat's impossible, right? Nobody here answered my question last week, but at this point in time I assume they either lied about the "final" season part, or that there's gonna be a movie to conclude the story. Would be a very abrupt ending if all the open questions are cut dry in only 20 more minutes. Even withou t answering everything, the pacing would be so absurd high that it'd ruin the feel of the episode. Oh well.

[Buffalobiian]

I got the impression that Levi was supposed to have less of his lower body after Zeke blew him up. He's now just "wounded".

[DarthEnderX]

It's fitting the worst character in the series gets taken out by the other worst character in the series.

But praise must go to all his team mates, too. None of them were named, important characters, and here they are bravely fighting several of the scariest disasters that ever appeared in Eldia. I was almost crying when the train exploded - so many courageous people murdered in the blink of an eye, just so that some murderous traitors can set their plan in motion.

Being the underdog doesn't automatically make them right. Morally, they're more monstrous than the titans.

I especially love how you call them "murderous", when Floch was literally in the middle of murdering unarmed prisoners when they arrived. Your double standards are hilarious.

However, wtf, how can this story end with only one episode left?! THat's impossible, right? Nobody here answered my question last week

I assume some people here are manga readers and, thus, it'd be spoiling to answer your question.

[neflight86]

Lets give Mfauli some credit (where it is due): It is more fun to argue about this stuff than to hold hands and kombaya the praises of our heroes endlessly.

Floch got the same treatment most in anime do when they persevere in the face of adversity. He got so close, but was shut down in the end, and we got some fine spectacle out of it. What interests me, though, is there there was no 'gotcha' flashback bridging the stampede survivor to the fascist we ended up with. Actually, I guess we may have seen that in plain sight as season four progressed. While I understand his eventual position, I think a little more context... maybe just one more small scene between "You should have saved Erwin!" and "Death to the outside!" would have been more satisfying, from a storytelling perspective. It may also be the year gap between seasons has faded my memory.

Gabi must have a passive accuracy bonus against flying targets, and the animation made Connie look like he caught a few bullets after he activated his diet ackerman mode. Mikasa also had some fine murder this episode, but the action was truly merely icing on the cake.

I like that Pieck even warned "the first transformation never goes well" to Falco.

Magath and Sades got a good farewell, and seldom has there been a more clear cut handing off to a newer generation, which ironically may be the last generation. Both got some good closure.

I understand there is no episode next week, but the week after we're getting an hour long finale, or something.

[DarthEnderX]

Watching this episode made me realize the AoT world is way smaller than I thought. Less than a day to cross the sea? 4 days to trample an entire continent.

Lets give Mfauli some credit (where it is due): It is more fun to argue about this stuff than to hold hands and kombaya the praises of our heroes endlessly.

Technically, he's still doing that. He's just convinced himself that Eren is still the hero.

[MFauli]

[QUOTE=DarthEnderX;573884]Watching this episode made me realize the AoT world is way smaller than I thought. Less than a day to cross the sea? 4 days to trample an entire continent.[/qote]

The author didn't think this through. The episode said "600km in 1 day" or so. Ok, that's 600km ... with a width of what, 100-200 meters, whatever the broadness of one of the giant titans is. That is nothing. Saying "the world is small" based on that is like saying "your lawn is only 20meters", ignoring that your lawnmower is only like half a meter broad, requiring many, many rows of 20 meters length. The few titans Eren controls will take years to do comprehensive damage to the world.

Technically, he's still dong that. He's just convinced himself that Eren is still the hero.

You convinced yourself that the traitor group is. Here's what I wrote today on MAL, but it's quite fitting to your absurd pov, too:

Lots of word around that FACT that the traitors are targeting exactly the same goal as Floch, except their factional association differs.

To point at Yeagerists' misdemeanor is just a shallow, cheap attempt at justifying the traitors' actions. Was Floch always "nice"? No. But he did what he had to do to SURVIVE. Complaining about making Eldians drink the spinal fluid wine as if Floch just wanted to be evil - WRONG. It was a crucial part of their plan to survive and as we saw, it worked out the way he intended it to. You criticize him for sacrifizing some of his own people, yet you cannot answer what would have been the alternative. I'll tell you: Extinction. Without the Yeagerist's plan, Eldians would already be gone, murdered by Marleyan troops. Or worse, Zeke's plan would have succeeded and Eldian's would have been condemned to a slow genocide, also ending in their going-extinct.

A battle for survival is never "nice" or pretty or 100% fair. I assume you're one of those Twitter-snowflakes that is currently campaigning against "Hogwarts Legacy" just because J. K. Rowling says an opinion out loud that the vast majority of people shares. Facts aren't nice. Facts are facts and important. Just like Yeagerists had to do the gruesome spinal fluid wine-plan to prevent a much, much greater evil from happening.

And you also ignore the elephant in the room: That Yeagerists, Floch and Eren are the absolute underdog! In any other story, they'd be the clear heroes. But for "reasons", the author of AoT decided that a minority fighting for survival against a majority should be the bad guys. Yeah, screw those Eldians who only want to keep existing, why don't they just lie down and die, amirite?! /s. Annie, Reiner, Pieck, Falco. Armin, Mikasa, Jean, Hange, Coonie. Gabitch. The Yeagerists are LITERALLY fighting against the ultimate plot armor, the combined named heroes - and they never gave up. If there was a video game that had you go up against 10 bosses in a row, you'd call that bullshit, and that'd be just a video game. For Floch and the Yeagerists, it was reality, and they didn't hesitate one piko second.

That final dash of Floch's is inspiring beyond anything the traitors have shown so far, cowardly and with fear on their face murdering their own friends. Mikasa enjoying bathing in the blood of others. Annie still not showing any shame or regret for what she did in the past, continuing to smash people like they're annoying flies. In all of this, Floch is a hero, and the Yeagerists are the bravest group of people this anime has shown us so far. No other group of people had to go up against such an invcincible enemy force before.

And here people like you have the gall to attribute genocide to one, but not the other group, when that's besides the point. The point is: One group only wanted to live in peace. The other group wants to murder the former. You're rooting for the latter - pretty fucked up if you ask me.

[DarthEnderX]

Lots of word around that FACT that the traitors are targeting exactly the same goal as Floch, except their factional association differs.

Already wrong and where I immediately stopped reading. Because, this still assumes that Eldian and non-Eldian survival is mutually exclusive. As we've said many times, it isn't. Just because Eren has convinced himself it's true, doesn't mean it is.

Floch and Eren are trying to kill all non-Eldians. The protag-team is trying to stop them from doing that. They are NOT trying to kill all the Eldians. So, no, their goal isn't the same at all.

[MFauli]

Already wrong and where I immediately stopped reading. Because, this still assumes that Eldian and non-Eldian survival is mutually exclusive. As we've said many times, it isn't. Just because Eren has convinced himself it's true, doesn't mean it is.

Floch and Eren are trying to kill all non-Eldians. The protag-team is trying to stop them from doing that. They are NOT trying to kill all the Eldians. So, no, their goal isn't the same at all.

As YOU have said many times, and it has always been wrong. Your false assumption is that the outside-world would be willing to talk and keep peace. That is just not realistic. There'd be, at most, peace until Eren dies and the thread of the mega titans vanishes. Plus while peace, the outside world would progress technologically and eventally overpower titans. Those mega titans of Erens are nothing against a single nuke.

[Buffalobiian]

The author didn't think this through. The episode said "600km in 1 day" or so. Ok, that's 600km ... with a width of what, 100-200 meters, whatever the broadness of one of the giant titans is. That is nothing. Saying "the world is small" based on that is like saying "your lawn is only 20meters", ignoring that your lawnmower is only like half a meter broad, requiring many, many rows of 20 meters length. The few titans Eren controls will take years to do comprehensive damage to the world.

Why would you march your wall titans in single file? You don't sweep with a broom's narrow edge. You use the long edge. Same deal here.

(they're 50m tall btw, and human proportions data published in the 1970s record average human shoulder width to be 0.225 that of height, putting these titans' shoulder width at 11m each.)

The Walls reached about 50 meters in height from base to summit and were incredibly strong in substance.[5] However, the Female Titan was able to damage one of them when she attempted to climb over it,[6] and the Beast Titan was able to break off pieces of Wall Rose and throw them.[7]

The distance from Wall Maria to Wall Rose was said to be about 100 km, the distance from Wall Rose to Wall Sina about 130 km, and the radius of Wall Sina about 250 km.[8] Assuming the Walls to be perfect circles, this would have made the total perimeter of Wall Maria to be around 3,016 km with the total area inside the Walls being 723,822 km².

[DarthEnderX]

As YOU have said many times, and it has always been wrong.

The dichotomy, as presented, is completely ridiculous. Other viable avenues have been explained to you. My HOPE is that this dichotomy is just the characters being stupid and unwilling to entertain other solutions. Hopefully, it's not the WRITER being stupid and writing it so this dichotomy is real.

There'd be, at most, peace until Eren dies and the thread of the mega titans vanishes

He can just pass it on to someone else.

Plus while peace, the outside world would progress technologically and eventally overpower titans. Those mega titans of Erens are nothing against a single nuke.

Then you don't let them.

Again, Eren holds ALL the power here. If he has enough power to flatten the entire world, then he has enough power to flatten weapon research and manufacture.

[MFauli]

Darth, it has been explained to you countless times why that's wrong. Instead you tell me that. Seriously? Why not throw in some insult while you're at it, sigh.

Why would you march your wall titans in single file? You don't sweep with a broom's narrow edge. You use the long edge. Same deal here.

(they're 50m tall btw, and human proportions data published in the 1970s record average human shoulder width to be 0.225 that of height, putting these titans' shoulder width at 11m each.)

1.) I was willing to go for a greather width to drive home the point. But they absolutely look wider than 11m to me. 2ßm at least.

2.) Anyway, why do you think I meant "in a column"? My assumption was that the titans walk away from Paradis into every direction, thus leaving a trail of 600km times 0.002km per day. That's a relatively tiny patch of flattened ground, basically you can easily avoid it.

3.) Now, you seem to think Eren leads all titans in a pulk, which I hadn't though of. But then it still takes a while to flatten an entire country and other countries have more time to prepare. Plus, again, I don't see how Eren can actually achieve killing everybody on the outside. It'd be still rather easy to avoid the titans, and while they'd break all houses and structures, there'd still be nature left/regrow quickly, so there'd be stuff to continue life with afterwards.

Until we see Eren's destruction plan in action (and we might, considering that some regions seem to be doomed already as was said this last episode), I'm doubtful about its viability in actual execution.

[Buffalobiian]

2.) Anyway, why do you think I meant "in a column"? My assumption was that the titans walk away from Paradis into every direction, thus leaving a trail of 600km times 0.002km per day. That's a relatively tiny patch of flattened ground, basically you can easily avoid it.

I assumed you meant a column because you talk about avoiding a single titan's span when there are thousands of titans around it.

Expanding from an epicentre has its weakness since density of titans reduces as you travel. I had a 3000km wall moving at 600km/day in mind.

I don't know what a pulk is. I googled it and I got some dog sleds.

[MFauli]

I assumed you meant a column because you talk about avoiding a single titan's span when there are thousands of titans around it.

Expanding from an epicentre has its weakness since density of titans reduces as you travel. I had a 3000km wall moving at 600km/day in mind.

I don't know what a pulk is. I googled it and I got some dog sleds.

Ah, sorry, assumed pulk was an English word, too lol. Means "bunch" or "group" in German.

Are there really "thousands" of those mega titans? Didn't look that many. But I guess if you assume that all the walls on Paradis are made of them, I guess that'd be close. 3000km width total sounds too much though. I guess we'd have to see a map of Paradis and measure it from there.

Found this:

https://i.redd.it/awjpfs4xafb61.jpg

That'd make it actually about 5000-6000km quickly estimating it. Definitely more mega titans than I thought before. But still even that takes time to truly flatten the world.

[neflight86]

I believe somewhere it was mentioned there were "millions" of titans in the walls. Also, their speed can be roughly calculated in that, within hours, it was commented that the most of the titans within wall Sina (the innermost wall and the last to leave by displacement) had left the boundary of Trost (a city on the outer edge of wall Maria). There was a roughly 60Km distance from Maria to Rose, and I'm not sure how much more to Sina, but I'm convinced they are traveling a a decent clip.

[DarthEnderX]

Are there really "thousands" of those mega titans? Didn't look that many.

The show said millions. Though I agree it didn't look it.

Darth, it has been explained to you countless times why that's wrong.

Your explanation always boils down to you thinking there are only two options just because a character said so. But a character saying a thing doesn't make it true. Especially when that character is Eren, a character that has been repeatedly shown to be both a huge dumbass, and that frequently goes into blind rages.

[MFauli]

ROFL, next season announced for 2023.

Only question now: HOW bad will the cliffhanger in today's episode be? lol