That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime: Tensei shitara Slime datta Ken

[MFauli]

So I had another disconnect with what this show is trying to go for tonally this episode...

One of the first things Rimuru said as he floated over the enemy camp was "these are the ones who killed Shion"... Well, unless your autopsy produced about 10,000+ stab wounds, only one or two soldiers actually killed her I would argue. Assuming he meant they are responsible for her death, I would suggest that their command structure shoulders a much larger portion of the blame in calling the attack. Normally simple semantics, but Rimuru is uniquely qualified to single out the actual responsible decision makers that have caused this destruction short of killing anybody that wears the banner, but he chose essentially genocide against an opponent that could not resist him. I understand that this show has been building to this conflict as a set piece, but so far Slime Isekai has, through diplomatic maneuvering, shown that those with reason can be... reasoned with, or at least worth the effort to try.

He then says "there is no need for forgiveness" before beginning his spell. I hope he is more trying to convince himself than actually believing that- he just said last episode that the deaths were due to his own incompetency, as his followers fell over themselves to council him that he is not in the wrong at all. He seems to have internalized it somewhat, so why not show some of that same compassion to the hapless attackers who would have already been killed by the monster kingdom if they were not under orders to do no harm? Because Rimuru needs to kill a large portion of people to become a demon lord and maybe resurrect some side characters; that's why.

The difference in aggression, I suppose, is that the nation of Falmuth(sp?) was expecting a war (with casualties) to preserve their economic interests- not very defensible morally except maybe to its mercantile class. Rimuru, on the other hand, was expecting a slaughter out of reclamation of territory, potential resurrection of allies, and likely some resentment, though I can't know beyond his words how he personally feels. It looks more noble due to the circumstances, but It doesn't feel so when the 'cool one-sided anime fights' are against opponents I have no reason to believe can't all be complicit. It is not catharsis but sympathy I feel, and it didn't have to be this way. He could have held a quorum where the kingdom outright denied his (the monster's) claim to life, and there would have been a proper setup for retaliation, I feel. Without stately interactions these events feel like just a means to the end of 'kicking the bad guys out'. I know I'm asking too much from a two-cour anime season of a light novel adaptation, but the details like showing how the solders are all silently 'headshot' by floating water particles felt more like the opening strike from, ironically, a monster invasion. This is still entertaining, even the conflict itself, it's just that the world building has suffered a bit, is all, or Rimuru is really letting the power he possesses corrupt his perspective.

The Otherworlders didn't last very long in a real fight- I forgot that even among them, Rimuru is an anomaly in power. He really did catch all of the breaks, huh?

I don't mean to be dour; I'm engaged more now than any time earlier this season and I hope the storytelling gets back to being a bit more thoughtful.

Basically what I said, so yeah, fully agreed.

[DarthEnderX]

I hope he is more trying to convince himself than actually believing that- he just said last episode that the deaths were due to his own incompetency, as his followers fell over themselves to council him that he is not in the wrong at all.

I mean, he's not. That's a real common thing in fiction that, when someone does something evil, the ones that didn't prevent it blame themselves. And, frankly, it's a bullshit trope.

You aren't responsible for the actions of others. At least, not when you have no authority over them. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

It's one of those ideas that would make Batman the most evil man ever for not killing the Joker. But even then, Batman KNOWS Joker is gonna escape and kill more people. Rimuru didn't know any of this would happen.

The Otherworlders didn't last very long in a real fight- I forgot that even among them, Rimuru is an anomaly in power. He really did catch all of the breaks, huh?

I mean, his power is Mega Maning people. It's as strong as the combined powers of everyone he can kill.

[neflight86]

I mean, he's not. That's a real common thing in fiction that, when someone does something evil, the ones that didn't prevent it blame themselves. And, frankly, it's a bullshit trope.

You aren't responsible for the actions of others. At least, not when you have no authority over them. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

It's one of those ideas that would make Batman the most evil man ever for not killing the Joker. But even then, Batman KNOWS Joker is gonna escape and kill more people. Rimuru didn't know any of this would happen.

While self-blame is a dangerous slippery slope, I think his political non-action has at least some blame in the attack. A Japanese (business) person, of all people, I would expect to be especially sensitive to 'reading the atmosphere' and understanding that 'rocking the boat' will invite ire. He was told as much by the Dwarven King and his merchant pal episodes ago.

As far as being not accepting responsibility for the actions of others, doesn't that undermine the entire idea of retaliation, or at least the beneficial caution its threat brings? Even though (I agree) you aren't ultimately responsible for other's actions, you can to some degree predict and steer them... or at least you should attempt to when your decision making may lead to nation affecting issues and their further escalations.

It's as strong as the combined powers of everyone he can kill.

Kill, or happen to befriend in the first episode...

[Ryllharu]

While self-blame is a dangerous slippery slope, I think his political non-action has at least some blame in the attack. A Japanese (business) person, of all people, I would expect to be especially sensitive to 'reading the atmosphere' and understanding that 'rocking the boat' will invite ire. He was told as much by the Dwarven King and his merchant pal episodes ago.

I would also remind you that the Dwarven King strongly reminded Rimuru that he is a king, and needs to act as one, with all the burdens that come with it. Or that by being so casual and laid back, he is doing a disservice to his people. The visit to a nation that he already gets along with so well ended well enough, so he shrugged it off that what he had been doing to date was working out okay so far, so, maybe he doesn't need to change.

He got along fine with Blumund, who advocate for avoiding war (but that's because they're so small they know that Tempest would destroy them instantly...so there's that).

Rimuru has since realized, and admitted to his closest allies, that his sentimentality about being human before, and from a peaceful nation like Japan, blinded him to the reality that not all humans are inherently good, civil, or deal with things diplomatically.

This is his arc to finally becoming a king, though as a demon lord. The reason why he needed to change were telegraphed from the start of this season.

As far as being not accepting responsibility for the actions of others, doesn't that undermine the entire idea of retaliation, or at least the beneficial caution its threat brings? Even though (I agree) you aren't ultimately responsible for other's actions, you can to some degree predict and steer them... or at least you should attempt to when your decision making may lead to nation affecting issues and their further escalations.

I'd argue that Rimuru rescinding his edict to never harm humans under any circumstances means he's reconciling his responsibility to his people. He's peaceful with other nations, obviously favoring trade. But he's now going to prove that attacking Tempest is a very poor idea.

He wants Youm to become the king, make a puppet state, and immediately resume trade with them instead. He's doing swift, brutal action, then returning to the status quo of happy, peaceful relations.

Though he's probably going to go after Clayman for continually provoking him.

[DarthEnderX]

While self-blame is a dangerous slippery slope, I think his political non-action has at least some blame in the attack.

I don't. That's pure victim-blaming.

[MFauli]

I don't. That's pure victim-blaming.

RIMURU IS THE VICTIM!!!11

rofl

[Kraco]

Even though (I agree) you aren't ultimately responsible for other's actions, you can to some degree predict and steer them... or at least you should attempt to when your decision making may lead to nation affecting issues and their further escalations.

That's precisely what he's doing: Destroying the whole invading army will send a message nobody can ignore. The threshold of attacking Jura Tempest Federation (or whatever the official name was, I can never remember it) will be considerably higher for anyone. It's exactly how it works in RL as well. When a country is known to possess military might, expansionist countries will think twice before invading, as it might not be worth it. If a country is chaotic and poorly defended, a neighbour will be attracted to attack, just like Russia targeted Ukraine.

I'm pretty sure Machiavelli wrote that a ruler must be able to show ruthlessness, even though ruthlessness and cruelty aren't good ways to rule. They can be necessary, however, since for some other rulers they may be the only understandable language.

[KrayZ33]

Rimuru is a nuke.
A nuke just doesn't care.

Every nation in this fantasy world seems to have a nuke, if they don't have one, then the whole political landscape makes no sense.
It shouldn't be possibly for any country without a nuke to exist.
Armies are pointless in combat and only good to supress recently nuked territories.

Rimuru is currently showing the world that they too have a nuke.
He doesn't have a moral high ground and it's actually possible to prevent the attack without having to kill everyone - but it wouldn't send the same message.
He is sacrificing the lives of thousands to make a point. That's evil for sure, so lets not be fooled.
You can argue that this will even more in the future as it will prevent conflicts to arise again.

He's basically America attacking/nuking North Korea (without allies) to show China that they shouldn't mess with him.

[Ryllharu]

Rimuru is a nuke.

Sir? I believe you have your isekais mixed up.

[Buffalobiian]

He's basically America attacking/nuking North Korea (without allies) to show China that they shouldn't mess with him.

Nuance matters.

Rimuru is nuking the 20k armed forces that are marching to annihilate his state.

Just slightly different to colony dropping on a civilian city or Hiroshima.

Ryll pointed out something before about anti-magic and Rimuru being inside. Well if that's the case then those water droplets are really just Rimuru's body dancing around piercing people.

[KrayZ33]

Nuance matters.

Rimuru is nuking the 20k armed forces that are marching to annihilate his state.

Just slightly different to colony dropping on a civilian city or Hiroshima.

Sure, it's different.
The thing is, Rimuru is making an example, he could probably have solved the whole thing in a different way but he doesn't want to, nor does he actually care.
That's the deal about what makes him evil in this situation and morally liable.

"It can't be helped I guess" *proceeds to slaughter the army of 20k in seconds*

No, he is wrong, it can be helped. It's just easier to get what he wants with this.
You might even say that he is happy about it. In the end, he gets a chance to revive his people this way. He doesn't care about the fact that he basically lost all the "lets avoid fighting"-reasoning he had before this event.

The army marching on his nation is obviously not a threat when he can just delete it like that.
It's a joke.
In our world this is the equivalent of some nation sending a single soldier to declare war and the war is lost for the attacking nation as soon as that single soldier has been shot.

Is it that nations own fault? Hell yeah. Could Rimuru have done things differently? Fucking hell yeah too. I just don't want this to be viewed as an act of last resort or some bullshit like that, because it truely wasn't and isn't.
He could've found different ways, and he could've stopped that army in a different way and probably didn't have to kill them. He is basically a god and he tries to make it clear that no one should fuck with him or his nation by killing thousands. That's not benevolent - that's all.

[Kraco]

Sure, it's different.
The thing is, Rimuru is making an example, he could probably have solved the whole thing in a different way but he doesn't want to, nor does he actually care.
That's the deal about what makes him evil in this situation and morally liable.

How exactly would he otherwise have a chance to resurrect his people? Even by becoming a demon lord he's only promised less than 5%, if memory serves. He's not killing those people just for the laughs. Not even to make an example out of them (although that's a much needed side effect in that world). He's harvesting their souls to undo the damage they caused by attacking.

I said it before, and I'll keep saying it: None of those Falmuth folks would have died if they hadn't attacked first. Did they try to negotiate with Jura Tempest about the trade issues? No. They just thought they would attack, slaughter, enslave and loot & pillage the place and be done with it. It's insane to blame Rimuru or his country for anything. Trade is supposed to be a competition, anyway. Every country here on Earth is struggling with the challenges or benefitting from the fruits of international trade as well. That's just how it goes.

You aren't actually a spy from Falmuth, are you, KrayZ33? Or maybe you are working for Clayman.

[DarthEnderX]

Sure, it's different.
The thing is, Rimuru is making an example, he could probably have solved the whole thing in a different way but he doesn't want to, nor does he actually care.
That's the deal about what makes him evil in this situation and morally liable.

"It can't be helped I guess" *proceeds to slaughter the army of 20k in seconds*

No, he is wrong, it can be helped.

Can it? The "thing" he want to solve is making his friends not dead anymore.

The only way he's currently aware of doing that is becoming a Demon Lord. And that requires 10k souls.

Could he solve the ATTACK in a different way? Yes. But he can't solve the dead friends any other way.

Every nation in this fantasy world seems to have a nuke, if they don't have one, then the whole political landscape makes no sense.
It shouldn't be possibly for any country without a nuke to exist.

...you know most countries in our world don't have nukes, right? Countries that continue to exist despite not having them?

I just don't want this to be viewed as an act of last resort or some bullshit like that, because it truely wasn't and isn't.

No, it's an act of justice. He is defending his people and retaliating for an earlier attack. Could he resolve this peacefully? Probably. But these attackers don't DESERVE a peaceful resolution.

RIMURU IS THE VICTIM!!!11

Yes?

[DarthEnderX]

Edit: Double post

[KrayZ33]

...you know most countries in our world don't have nukes, right? Countries that continue to exist despite not having them?

They are all connected to countries with nukes - have guarantees and all that kind of stuff, most of them even have nukes from other countries inside their territory..
Those that aren't are extremely unstable and basically not a country at all.
There is basically no country worth mentioning north of the equator that doesn't have nuclear weapons.

Our world is also completely different compared to theirs were open declarations of war are seemingly
very common, so it's a different political landscape alltogether.
In our world, it actually matters if America fights someone on the other side of the planet.
In their's, no one would give a fuck because it's "far away".

What I'm saying is that the attacking nation must have some sort of extremely powerful being on their side or as an ally, otherwise their existence (especially since it is as rich as it is) doesn't make sense.
It would have been steamrolled by another nation/demon lord hundreds of years ago since armies are, as we have seen here, obviously completely pointless.

No, it's an act of justice. He is defending his people and retaliating for an earlier attack. Could he resolve this peacefully? Probably. But these attackers don't DESERVE a peaceful resolution.

Bullshit.
They deserve a peaceful solution just like any other. These are soldiers and not the rule-makers. They are victims too when they are lead to certain death unknowingly and with lies.
If it's possible, you do it if you are a decent being, even if they are the aggressor. Pre-emptively killing everyone just so they don't hurt another being is not only dumb, it has absolutely nothing to do with justice.
Even if he wants to revive his minions, it's not the right thing to do. He's killing tens of thousands for a few hundred (if the number was even that high)
It's hardly different from taking revenge or using the "eye for an eye"-idiom. It's a degenerate way of thinking and he, as a modern human being, should know that. Would it be "fair" to turn around? No.
But that's not the issue I'm having with this.
It's not that I can't understand what he is doing, it's just that he lost all the moral high ground he had. There is no question about that.
Since you were talking about these things in this/other threads, I'd have thought you understood this.

Hell, even World of Warcraft gets it.
When Uther threw Arthas into the maw for all he had done to him and his people, he didn't serve justice. He got his revenge.

[Kraco]

Even if he wants to revive his minions, it's not the right thing to do. He's killing tens of thousands for a few hundred (if the number was even that high)
It's hardly different from taking revenge or using the "eye for an eye"-idiom. It's a degenerate way of thinking and he, as a modern human being, should know that. Would it be fair to turn around? No.
But that's not the issue I'm having with this.
It's not that I can't understand what he is doing, it's just that he lost all the moral high ground he had. There is no question about that.

Chancellor (or was it chairman?) Rimuru's first responsibility are the lives and prosperity of the citizens of the Jura Tempest Federation (Alliance?). The first responsibility of the king of Falmuth are the citizens of Falmuth. No matter the cost, Rimuru must place his own people before the people of other nations, and the same goes for the other rulers. In a war, let 10 or 100 enemy combatants die for one of your own? Every time. Rather than blame Rimuru for the deaths of Falmuth soldies, you should be asking is the king of Falmuth ready to bear their deaths on his conscience? But then again, I doubt that man has much in the way of conscience, so it could be a useless question.

Moral high ground isn't of much use for those lying dead on the streets. You know, under the anti-monster and anti-magic fields they were almost as helpless against the otherworlders and the knights as the Falmuth troops are now against Rimuru.

[KrayZ33]

Chancellor (or was it chairman?) Rimuru's first responsibility are the lives and prosperity of the citizens of the Jura Tempest Federation (Alliance?). The first responsibility of the king of Falmuth are the citizens of Falmuth. No matter the cost, Rimuru must place his own people before the people of other nations, and the same goes for the other rulers. In a war, let 10 or 100 enemy combatants die for one of your own? Every time. Rather than blame Rimuru for the deaths of Falmuth soldies, you should be asking is the king of Falmuth ready to bear their deaths on his conscience? But then again, I doubt that man has much in the way of conscience, so it could be a useless question.

Moral high ground isn't of much use for those lying dead on the streets. You know, under the anti-monster and anti-magic fields they were almost as helpless against the otherworlders and the knights as the Falmuth troops are now against Rimuru.

Big fat - nooooope.
He is acting on a fucking fairy-tale.
You are justifying the death of thousands of individuals for the 1% chance. It's really pathetic if not simply blurted out but said with conviction.
Statisticly speaking, he is killing 10.000 for 1 individual - if he is lucky. But that one individual is already dead. So basically, he is playing god. That has absolutely *nothing* to do with "justice".
The only life he has a right to judge and take away is his own. It's not his decision to make and take lives from and grant them to others.

He is *taking* lives, not protecting them. He has no obligation to anyone or anything to do that.
He could've stopped the army without the loss of lives like that. It's really not a "what if" or "maybe not", he so obviously could.

Everyone should know that his actions are understandable. Everyone should equally know that his actions are wrong and the fact that people don't, scares the shit out of me.

Rather than blame Rimuru for the deaths of Falmuth soldies, you should be asking is the king of Falmuth ready to bear their deaths on his conscience? But then again, I doubt that man has much in the way of conscience, so it could be a useless question.

I can blame multiple people at once. One wrong action doesn't mean the reaction to it is always right.
It has never even remotely been part of the discussion that the King of Falmuth is in the wrong. That is obvious.
What isn't so obvious, it seems, is that killing people (especially those that had no direct involvement in what has happened) instead of forgiving them is wrong. And that's pretty sad.

"Justice" my ass.
"obligation" my ass, he is supposed to protect his citizen, if there are ways to do so without killing and ending the existence of half a nation, it's the obvious way to do that instead. Doesn't matter if it's "fair" or not.

I don't think it's a coincidence that he turns into a "demon"-lord after all this.

[Kraco]

Big fat - nooooope.
He is acting on a fucking fairy-tale.
You are justifying the death of thousands of individuals for the 1% chance. It's really pathetic.

He is *taking* lives, not protecting them. He has no obligation to anyone or anything to do that.
He could've stopped the army without the loss of lives like that. It's really not a "what if" or "maybe not", he so obviously could.

Everyone should know that his actions are understandable. Everyone should equally know that his actions are wrong and the fact that people don't scares the shit out of me.

If he didn't need their lives for the resurrection magic, I imagine he would have only annihilated the leadership of the Falmuth army, possibly the knights of the strike force that killed his people, but let the thousands of grunts walk away. But then again, I guess that would have required that only a few people, and no named ones, would have died in the city. It would have made the whole first strike of the war look quite pitiful. If there was no resurrection option but Shion and all the others had still died, I reckon Rimuru could have still brought the hammer down on the Falmuth army quite heavily, to quench his wrath. However, he was shown to suppress his feelings in an earlier scene, so it's impossible to know for sure. He might have settled for killing the king, the commanders, the wizards, and so forth, while leaving most of the ordinary troops alive.

I don't blame you for finding war scary. That's a whole lot better than so many keyboard warriors all over the net glorifying it and acting like they would be real world Rambos if shit ever hit the fan.

[KrayZ33]

If he didn't need their lives for the resurrection magic, I imagine he would have only annihilated the leadership of the Falmuth army, possibly the knights of the strike force that killed his people, but let the thousands of grunts walk away. But then again, I guess that would have required that only a few people, and no named ones, would have died in the city. It would have made the whole first strike of the war look quite pitiful. If there was no resurrection option but Shion and all the others had still died, I reckon Rimuru could have still brought the hammer down on the Falmuth army quite heavily, to quench his wrath. However, he was shown to suppress his feelings in an earlier scene, so it's impossible to know for sure. He might have settled for killing the king, the commanders, the wizards, and so forth, while leaving most of the ordinary troops alive.

I don't blame you for finding war scary. That's a whole lot better than so many keyboard warriors all over the net glorifying it and acting like they would be real world Rambos if shit ever hit the fan.

That's what I'm saying.
I can completely and 100% understand his reasoning and why he does it.
He needs the "sacrifices".
It's just that this action is not the "good" choice. It's not what we teach our kids, if you want to call it that.
And I sure as hell hope that he knows this and won't turn into a big-fat hypocrite - that is all, because it's unbearable to watch someone who thinks he's rightous all the time, condemns others that aren't, and then acts like that himself when the first inconvenience shows up that is problematic to solve.

[MFauli]

How exactly would he otherwise have a chance to resurrect his people?

Murdering 20000 people or some gamble to resurrect his friends. Yeah, maybe he simply doesn't get to do that?!

He made a choice. And it's an evil one.