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Thread: Rape and morality in popular media

  1. #21
    Awesome user with default custom title KrayZ33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFauli View Post
    Go no further than Dragon Ball. Vegeta murdered countless innocent people. But at some point he decides to fight Freezer and all is forgiven? Fuck this bs!
    So it would've been better if Vegeta rapes everyone and is forgiven just because he fought Freezer?

    How does that example help your cause, the only thing it shows is how poorly written Dragonball is.
    Nothing "mature" about it at all whether it's rape or murder.

    I don't really read rape stories so I can't recommend any, but there is a rape tag in mangaupdates and novelupdates. A lot of wuxia has men raping women who then fall in love with them.

    Most shoujo manga stories feature a female protagonist, who are also the victims of the rape, but they eventually like it. That doesn't fit what you want though.

    The idea I was trying to present is that rape isn't as censored or rare as you think, and there are a lot of stories where rapists are redeemed or even praised (because the girl deserved it kind of thing).
    heh, sounds exactly like the nonsense I had in mind.
    Glorifying rape as a force of good rather than evil. Japan/Asian countries are scary.

  2. #22
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    @shinta:

    Yeah, looking myself is what I didn't want to, because if I search for rape tags, I'm bound to find a bunch of 'rape is great' stories. I know that rape is not rare in specific corners of fiction, but we were talking about popular media like anime, hollywood or such, and it's both rare and rapists are never forgiven. Sure, if I go to nhentai.net I'll find 30k rape doujins, but I'm not looking for a story that I can fap to, but a serious story that tackles the topic in an interesting manner. Bummer that you don't know any

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    So it would've been better if Vegeta rapes everyone and is forgiven just because he fought Freezer?

    How does that example help your cause, the only thing it shows is how poorly written Dragonball is.
    Nothing "mature" about it at all whether it's rape or murder.



    heh, sounds exactly like the nonsense I had in mind.
    Glorifying rape as a force of good rather than evil. Japan/Asian countries are scary.
    No, the point is: Vegeta should have been killed or imprisoned. But he wasn't, because somehow murder is an acceptable crime in fiction :/

  3. #23
    Yorha Unit- shinta|hikari's Avatar
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    I wasn't talking about porn or doujins. These are legit stories, fantasy, action, etc, that have rape in them, and it isn't treated the way you dislike.

    However, they are not tackling rape in a serious manner. Because if they did, they wouldn't be so forgiving of the act.
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  4. #24
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shinta|hikari View Post
    I wasn't talking about porn or doujins. These are legit stories, fantasy, action, etc, that have rape in them, and it isn't treated the way you dislike.

    However, they are not tackling rape in a serious manner. Because if they did, they wouldn't be so forgiving of the act.
    Are they forgiving of murder?

  5. #25
    Yorha Unit- shinta|hikari's Avatar
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    Yes, even massacres of entire clans, women and children included. But then again, they aren't tackling homicide in a serious manner either.
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  6. #26
    AdmiralKage DarthEnderX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You can kill a person on accident, on impulse, or even out of revenge, yet I still have to see a true maniacal mass murderer join a hero. Warriors are not murderers, it's their "job".
    C'mon dude, Vegeta.

    Dude calls himself a warrior but he wiped out planets out of boredom before switching sides.

    Edit: Oh, there was another page and he was already brought up. Nm.

    Quote Originally Posted by MFauli View Post
    All of those other taboos actually happen on the regular and without anyone being shocked. Incest is super common. Lolicon themes are, too. And cannibalism, well, we all just saw Slime. It's only rape that causes an outrage, which I find endlessly hypocritical.
    Did you miss the part where Steam just took all the loli games off it's store?

    I'm not sure where you get your info that you think the average person in the US is "cool" with incest or loli stuff in their anime either.

    Quote Originally Posted by MFauli View Post
    I'm no longer writing on the story, so I can tell you ablut what I had in mind: Carlyle, a 43 yo guy, convicted rapist, out of prison, raped a girl 15 years ago out of sheer lust. Has come to terms with it, fully realizes he did something very wrong. Why should he not be able to go on as a good person?
    In real life? Probably.

    That doesn't mean anyone wants to watch an anime about that guy.

  7. #27
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthEnderX View Post
    C'mon dude, Vegeta.

    Dude calls himself a warrior but he wiped out planets out of boredom before switching sides.

    Edit: Oh, there was another page and he was already brought up. Nm.

    Did you miss the part where Steam just took all the loli games off it's store?

    I'm not sure where you get your info that you think the average person in the US is "cool" with incest or loli stuff in their anime either.

    In real life? Probably.

    That doesn't mean anyone wants to watch an anime about that guy.
    1.) Steam's and Sony's censorship agenda are completely unrelated. If you want to know why their bs is wrong, I wrote a lengthy article about it here:

    https://flyingfisch.wordpress.com/20...-and-morality/

    2.) Society being ok with something doesn't justify banning it. But clearly people watching anime don't give a shit about loli characters, yet the same people are outraged when rape occurs.

    3.) There's plenty of 'why would anyone wanna watch that' anime out there. Truth is that most people dislike having their morality challenged. It's why I'm glad we don't have the death penalty in Germany, because we certainly have enough dumb people that would enforce it if there wasn't a law.

  8. #28
    AdmiralKage DarthEnderX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFauli View Post
    1.) Steam's and Sony's censorship agenda are completely unrelated. If you want to know why their bs is wrong, I wrote a lengthy article about it here:
    Hahahahaha! No.

  9. #29
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthEnderX View Post
    Hahahahaha! No.
    Then don't pretend to care about a topic.

  10. #30
    Awesome user with default custom title KrayZ33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthEnderX View Post
    C'mon dude, Vegeta.

    Dude calls himself a warrior but he wiped out planets out of boredom before switching sides.

    Edit: Oh, there was another page and he was already brought up. Nm.
    ya but it's hard to take an anime where death isn't even permanent seriously.
    I mean, it's quite obvious that an anime like that isn't able to answer moral questions.
    As mentioned, it wouldn't be any better if he rapes everyone instead of killing them in that case, as it's already painting the wrong picture.

  11. #31
    Family Friendly Mascot Buffalobiian's Avatar
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    Summary:

    Why is rape not more common in mainstream stories?
    Because
    ---it’s not as useful/versatile a tool for driving narrative compared to murder, and
    ---it’s not terribly enjoyable outside of porn

    -When rape is shown, why is it so bad?
    ---because we identify with suffering more than death itself.
    ---and rape victims tell us that suffering is very real.
    ---dead guys don’t tell us much.


    (Summary here is for clarity. The long version turned out less organised than I had envisioned)
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Long version:

    Rape, Murder and depictions in media.

    Miscellaneous stuff:

    Shinta has pointed, rape/murder in non-serious context exist.

    -non-serious rape media include porn and select stories.
    -non-serious murder media include John Wick 2 and a plethora of other stuff.
    -Serious rape media essentially doesn’t exist aside from documentaries.
    -Serious murder media include largely documentaries to tragedy movies (think WW2 movies about Jews).


    Driver for media contents include:
    -agenda of the producer
    -demands from the consumer.

    If someone doesn’t want to talk about it, it won’t get made. It people don’t want to watch it, and producers know that, it won’t get made.

    Now let’s hit the main issue you have with media depicting rape:

    Why does popular media depict so little rape? When it does, why is it so bad? Why is murder more common and more accepted?


    Rape as a narrative tool:

    Rape for the most part isn’t pleasant to watch outside of porn. It also doesn’t drive a story forward in a way murder does.

    Rape vs MC.
    When it’s a case of the MC or related parties being raped, it usually serves as a reason for revenge. You can achieve a similar effect by murdering the MC’s family, or have the MC suffer other forms of harassment.
    The benefit by avoiding rape as a topic is that the medium ran be rated for a wider audience. Parents don’t have to give sex education to their kids afterwards.

    Rape by MC:

    Narratives follow this general direction:

    -Main characters encounter a problem.
    -Main characters take action to resolve the problem.
    -????
    -Story.

    As an action, murder solves problems in ways that rape doesn’t. The MC may be forced to “kill” someone in order to progress with whatever their agenda is (such as staying alive).

    I can best express this as “there’s no good reason to rape someone”. You can interrogate, detain, delay or incapacitate someone without raping them. The “raping” part only serves the benefit of the rapist, taking away their moral highground when characters perform necessary evils.

    Example:
    -I killed him because he was after my life. I had to get that information out of him. I couldn’t let him leave.
    -I had(???) to rape him

    (The only reason I can think of, is if you’re required to impregnate someone forcefully. That’s pretty niche territory. )

    In summary, rape isn’t as versatile or as logical an action for conflict resolution in most narratives. Amongst other reasons (taste etc), that’s why it’s shown less in narratives.



    Now when it does happen, why is it so cringe-worthy?

    -Well for one, because there is no redeeming factor in the act. (Enter above paragraph about rape being non-essential and only benefiting the rapist).

    Rape, murder and suffering.

    We’re taught that rape victims suffer physically and mentally from this by survivors. Their suffering, screaming, anguish, fear and helplessness is also what’s depicted on screen. That’s something most viewers can identify with.

    Suffering experienced by the dead is difficult to conceptualise, because they’re dead. One can imagine the lost life they could have lived, or estimate the lost economic productivity they could have provided and so forth. But no one really knows what it feels like to have that taken away from you and not be around to watch it. Suffering stops once you’re dead. It’s the living who continue to suffer.

    Let’s talk about Game of Thrones for a bit. Ramsay Bolton is a cunt, not because he killed a bunch of people like everyone else in the show, but because he causes suffering by raping and torturing for no reason other than to satisfy his own twisted desires. No one likes Ramsay Bolton.

    Finally, I want to talk about mutual intentions.

    Rape is pretty one-sided. One person has the upper hand, and takes sexual advantage of whoever they’ve pinned down. It’s never “rape or be raped”.

    Murder can result from two people fighting, and one kills the other out of ‘necessity’. That’s excusable from a self defence perspective. When one person has an overwhelming advantage and just wastes innocent people they’re not in conflict with? You can call that a slaughter. (eg mass shooters)

    And society doesn’t have anything good to say about them either.



    Summary:

    -Why is rape not more common in mainstream stories? Because
    ---it’s not as useful a tool for driving narrative, and
    ---it’s not terribly enjoyable outside of porn

    -When rape is shown, why is it so bad?
    ---because we identify with suffering more than death itself.
    ---and rape victims tell us that suffering is very real.

    MFauli, if you want to talk about rape being a useful narrative driver, go right ahead. I’m no expert in story writing.
    As for whether the suffering from rape is real or not, and whether it compares with dead people, you’ll have to take this up with rape victims and dead people.

    If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~

  12. #32
    Yorha Unit- shinta|hikari's Avatar
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    I think you missed adding the lack of justification for rape in your final summary. That's a very important point because a lot of killing happening in decently written stories is done for a justifiable reason, not pleasure in the act itself. Even most villains kill for a goal. Very few protagonists kill for pleasure (i.e. Dexter) but even then he has a code of only killing other killers. The villains that do kill for pleasure are generally written to be hated.

    I also think you missed adding the profit factor in why rape is not common in mainstream stories, even though you mentioned it in the middle of your post. If rape started selling, people would start adding it, but it doesn't sell for reasons stated in your "why is it so bad" list.

    One random tidbit I thought of:
    Cool looking things sell.
    Killing sells because it can be cool. Look at action films and games. Cool moves that lead to human death sells.
    Rape can't be cool. It's kinda gory at worst and sexy (in porn to some [cause you know it's fake]) at best. Hard to sell that.
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  13. #33
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Buff, I thought the topic would be over so I didn't want to reply, but anyway:

    Your entire posting is based off the assumption that

    a) rape is 'different' and
    b) can never be presented in a way that supports the plot.

    I'm contemplating how much sense it'd make to create examples that prove your assumption wrong, but I'm afraid you'd easily dismiss them, so I'd be wasting my time. I'll try anyway, because I'm an idiot with too much time.

    First, I find it pretty condescending to grant rape victims a higher level of sympathy than murder victims. Yes, we can see their suffering (sometimes. Not all rape victims are damaged goods, it's bad that society pushes that narrative as it discourages victims from getting over it), but that's what makes it less bad than murder: murder has you see nothing. It's the end, the absolute barrier between existence and ... . I like to compare it like this: Rape crimes are like your clichee dark villain covered in black and putting on 'evil eyes'. Murder crimes, however, are like those creepy pure-white, emotionless villains, beyond comprehension.

    But let's return to rape in stories.

    You claimed that rape serves no purpose other than making the perpetrator himself feel good. I'll now list a couple scenarios that I'd find interesting. I invite you to tell me why you think they'd be boring:

    - MC committed rape in the past. Has changed his way. Goes on to protect the world yada yada. (Interesting dilemma: on one hand rape, on the other hand saving everybody)

    - Variant #1: Probably fantasy setting. MC is underling of real villain. Is ordered to rape heroine to humiliate her. Later he has a change of heart, realizes his boss is evil, and joins the heroes. Maybe even works together with raped heroine. (interesting dilemma: being forced to rape. Meeting your victim)

    - Variant #2: MC is regular guy in real world. His family was kidnapped. Anonymous message tells him to go somewhere. Finds a high school girl locked in a cell. New message: 'Rape her or we'll kill your family. We've got cameras everywhere. You've got 5 minutes left to start.' (interesting dilemma: MC absolutely istn't a bad person who wants to rape. But put against the potential murder of his family, he'll do it, ofc. Interesting to obbserve the fallout: how does his wife react? The victim? The police?)

    - Rape not as a central plot machine but as an everyday occurrence for realism's sake. BERSERK does it well. I always wondered while watching Naruto: if this wasn't a shounen series, there'd have to be a lot of rape. The entire concept of kunoichi revolves around being prepared for 'the worst'. When defeated kunoichi lie on the batlefield, surely opponent ninja wouldn't be all that nice and just have 'fun'. See perverts like Jiraiya. Again, it's shounen so it didn't happen. But ...

    - Even in reality: middle age law of 'priore noctis' is basically 'plot rape'.

    - People commit murder from spontaneous emotion, but the same can also happen for rape.

    As you might be able to see, I'm not actually calling for active rape scenes to be shown (maybe outside of those implied rapes in terrible locations for realism's sake). What makes rape in fiction appealing to me is the aftermath it causes. It's exciting to see how people deal with it. To see everybody's morality being put to a test, often times crumbling, sometimes succeeding.

    You're right that active rape scenes would hardly contribute the plot (it's possible, though), but rape as something that happenED (past tense) and is now subject for further psychological, societal, cultural exploration? I find that extremely Interesting. We live in a society where dumb people treat rapists worse than murderers. I'd love to see stories that break taboos and show a reality where even the worst people can become good again - and thus deserve a 2nd chance. It's not even because I sympathize with rapists (although I DO condemn how society treats those that did their time in jail and are free again), but because we've all seen countless stories that follow the mantra 'rapist irredeemably evil'. It's boring. I want to see stuff that's not boring. It's that simple.

  14. #34
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Shinta, you just wrote sexy stuff doesn't sell. Lol

    But seriously, it's kinda unfair to say 'rape doesn't sell', when our US-dominated western society has long been indoctrinated that 'violence cool, sex bad'. At that point it's no longer about rape specifically.

  15. #35
    Awesome user with default custom title KrayZ33's Avatar
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    - People commit murder from spontaneous emotion, but the same can also happen for rape.

    Murder isn't spontaneous, that's why we differenciate between murder and manslaughter.

    And while involuntary manslaughter certainly is a thing, and even intentional manslaughter after being provoked (for example).

    Raping someone for the same reason is not "normal" and tells you a lot about the mental state of the culprit. The act of rape isn't over in an instant.. it's hard to make it count as an "spontaneous" act.

  16. #36
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    ).

    Raping someone for the same reason is not "normal" and tells you a lot about the mental state of the culprit. The act of rape isn't over in an instant.. it's hard to make it count as an "spontaneous" act.
    Aaand now you're doing the exact shit that I condemn: you're talking about a rapist's state of mind as if only a true sick mind would rape - as opposed to a murderer's mind who is sophisticated and intelligent, huh? (btw bugger of with 'murder vs manslaughter', I'm not a lawyer and don't care about idiotic differentiations. Murder is murder)

  17. #37
    Family Friendly Mascot Buffalobiian's Avatar
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    Your entire posting is based off the assumption that

    a) rape is 'different' and
    b) can never be presented in a way that supports the plot.
    -I don’t know what you mean by “rape is different” – different to what?

    -I didn’t say it can never contribute to a plot. I said that it’s less useful and versatile compared to murder, which explains why you see much more murder in mainstream narratives than rape.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Moving onto your variant scenarios, you’re inviting me to explain why they’d be boring. I never said stories involving rape would be boring. I said the following:

    -Rape isn’t as versatile/useful a tool in narratives and conflict resolution compared to other means.
    -You can interrogate, detain, delay or incapacitate someone without raping them.
    -You can achieve a similar effect by ….. other forms of harassment.
    -The benefit by avoiding rape as a topic is that the medium ran be rated for a wider audience. Parents don’t have to give sex education to their kids afterwards.

    (Some of the above 4 points are taken out of context from my previous post, but the message itself is still true).

    As for your specific variants:

    -Original: MC raped, but now wants to do good.
    -Variant 1: MC raped thinking it was the right thing to do, now he wants to do good.
    -Variant 2: MC was forced to rape, now he wants to do good.

    I think the Original and Variant 1 is fine as a story base. Variant 2 won’t be challenging anyone’s morality as it’s standard forced crime stuff.

    Again, I never said the stories could never be interesting, I said that rape is less often used compared to other methods in narrative because they can achieve similar effects without stepping on landmines*.

    Replace *rape* in your scenarios with grievous bodily harm, murder (of family) etc, and you could achieve a similar conflict from a narrative perspective.

    This avoids (the landmines)*:
    -rating issues.
    -Consumer distaste issues.

    As stated, producer factors and consumer factors influence what gets made. You’re really pushing for this because that’s what you want to see. If there’s a big consumer demand for this (that I’m not seeing), then the producers aren’t seeing it either.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In general, whether someone is respected post criminal conviction depends on their mentality. Someone who appears to have resolved their reason or propensity to rape and has served their sentence is a free person again. Someone who clearly disrespects women and will do it again at the next opportunity should be shunned. This applies to rapists and murderers alike.

    To be honest, if you want to prove that rapists can be good people or challenge the way rapists are treated in real life, ask for a documentary on the rehabilitation of rapists, and the unfair prejudice they feel post incarceration. That’s the best platform to actually get for/against perspectives on the same screen while promoting factual accuracy. Narratives bend facts all the time to suit the plot.








    ADDIT:
    -MFauli, your dismissal of the difference between intentional and unintentional homocide reminds me of our discussion between intentional vs unintentional peeking:

    https://www.gotwoot.org/showthread.p...l=1#post561809

    If it's not Isuzu-chan Mii~

  18. #38
    Linerunner MFauli's Avatar
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    Again, I think the 'audiences don't wanna see rape' is a consequence of being used to certain crimes and not others. That's why people obviously think I'm trolling when I say "I want more rape in media", but it's actually based on reason.

    You're saying murder is more versatile ... I'd say that's not true, not to a significant degree. Where it suffers versatility compared to murder is gender equality - rape would mostly have female victims, while murder doesn't discriminate (even though most murder victims in media are male).

    In the end, I want Interesting stories and I want some justice (imagine Vegeta had raped Bulma - he'd be a villain forever).

    As for the semantics debate, I'm really not dismissing anything here. I'm not a lawyer, English isn't my primary language, so for the purpose of this debate,murder equals human killing human. The technicalities don't matter here. Also Mineta is the only redeeming quality of BnHA.

  19. #39
    Yorha Unit- shinta|hikari's Avatar
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    Murder versus homicide/manslaughter is not a semantics argument. They are literally two different things and are treated vastly differently in the court of law and seen differently by the public as well.

    I believe Buff gave a crap ton of examples where killing someone in a story is a viable option where rape isn't, such as self-defense, getting rid of an obstacle, etc. Other common narrative scenario examples are silencing witnesses, saving a hostage, or car chases, all of which commonly involve killing (because it'd be unbelievable otherwise), but won't be facilitated by rape at all. Killing also allows you to remove a character from a story, which is important for many types of stories, but rape can't do that. You can't just rape someone and forget they existed. They'll probably want justice or revenge (see MeToo movement). You can simply do more things with killing to push a story forward than rape.

    Also, my (and Buff's) point isn't that stories involving rape (as redeemable/acceptable) are bad or boring or wrong. It's that it wouldn't sell, so no one would make it.

    As for acclimating audiences to rape, I'd like to pose the question of why? Do we really need more people with sympathy fatigue in a world where everyone is so apathetic and cruel already (check how people behave online)? I'm not saying we shouldn't, but is there really any benefit to it outside of the few who want to see it?

    The entire point of mainstream media is to cater to the masses. The outliers have niche media to satisfy them, so I don't understand why you want to intentionally push for something that is rejected by the masses to be included in mainstream media, when you aren't part of that group anyway and can obtain your entertainment somewhere else.

    When I said sexy, I clearly qualified it in the brackets. Sexy - in porn to some people because they know it's fake. ​That's clearly not the mainstream audience. That definitely wouldn't sell as much as Avengers or Frozen.

    EDIT:
    Also, that moment when a typo can get really bad:
    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalobiian View Post
    ADDIT:
    -MFauli, your dismissal of the difference between intentional and unintentional homocide reminds me of our discussion between intentional vs unintentional peeking:
    <img src=https://ibb.co/1dDDk6w border=0 alt= />
    Peace.

  20. #40
    Awesome user with default custom title KrayZ33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MFauli View Post
    Aaand now you're doing the exact shit that I condemn: you're talking about a rapist's state of mind as if only a true sick mind would rape - as opposed to a murderer's mind who is sophisticated and intelligent, huh? (btw bugger of with 'murder vs manslaughter', I'm not a lawyer and don't care about idiotic differentiations. Murder is murder)
    Murder is murder, yes... but manslaughter is not murder because manslaughter is manslaughter

    but I know what you mean and that basically equals saying "rape is just sex..."

    you're talking about a rapist's state of mind as if only a true sick mind would rape - as opposed to a murderer's mind who is sophisticated and intelligent, huh?
    "yes" for the first part, "no" for the second.
    The important thing is that rape has a completely different motivation most of the time than murder or manslaughter.

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